Amy Nordhues, Overcomer of Therapist Abuse: Resilience in Life and Leadership Episode 039

Stephanie talks to Amy Nordhues who experienced and overcame therapist abuse. Amy has an extremely inspiring journey and her book is a page turner!

Amy Nordhues is a survivor of both childhood sexual abuse and sexualabuse as an adult at the hands of a mental health professional. She is a passionate Christ-follower and expert on the healing God provides. She has a BA in Psychology with minors in Sociology and Criminology. Her devotions have been published in The Secret Place (Judson Press) and include: A Big Softy, Winter 2018, Fixer Upper, Summer 2019, No, ThankYou, Summer 2021 and Unveiled, Fall 2021. Her memoir, Prayed Upon:Breaking Free from Therapist Abuse won first place Inspire ChristianWriter's "Great Openings" contest for non-fiction. She blogs atwww.amynordhues.com. A married mother of three, when she isn't spending time with her family, writing, reading, or creating photo books, she can be found laughing at her favorite comedians.

https://amynordhues.com/

Everyone has resilience, but what does that mean and how to we use it in life and leadership? Join Stephanie Olson, expert in resiliency and trauma, every week as she talks to other experts living lives of resilience. Stephanie also shares her own stories of addictions, disordered eating, domestic and sexual violence, abandonment, and trauma; and shares the everyday struggles and joys of everyday life. As a wife, mom, and CEO she gives commentaries, and, sometimes a few rants, to shed light on what makes a person resilient. So, if you have experienced adversity in life in any way, and you want to learn how to better lead your family, your workplace, and, well, your life, this podcast is for you!

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INSPIRE your team to LEAD WITH SUCCESS and MOTIVATE others with Stephanie bringing 20+ years of speaking experience. If you need to EMPOWER, ENGAGE, and EDUCATE your people-Book Stephanie as your speaker today!

https://www.stephanieolson.com/ask-stephanie-to-speak

Everyone has resilience, but what does that mean, and how do we use it in life and leadership? Join Stephanie Olson, an expert in resiliency and trauma, every week as she talks to other experts living lives of resilience. Stephanie also shares her own stories of addictions, disordered eating, domestic and sexual violence, abandonment, and trauma, and shares the everyday struggles and joys of everyday life. As a wife, mom, and CEO she gives commentaries and, sometimes, a few rants to shed light on what makes a person resilient. So, if you have experienced adversity in life in any way and want to learn how to better lead your family, your workplace, and, well, your life, this podcast is for you!

https://stephanieolson.com

Transcript

Stephanie Olson: 0:03

Welcome to resilience in life and leadership with your host Stephanie Olson, speaker, author addictions sexual violence and resilience expert. Hello and welcome to resilience in life and leadership. Amy Nord Hughes's a survivor of both childhood sexual abuse and sexual abuse as an adult at the hands of a mental health professional. She is a passionate Christ follower and expert on the healing God provides. She is an accomplished writer, which devotions have been published, and her memoir preyed upon breaking free from therapist abuse, when first place inspire Christian writers, great openings, contests for nonfiction. She blogs at Amy Nord hughes.com, a married mother of three when she isn't spending time with her family writing, reading or creating photo books. She can be found laughing at her favorite comedians. Welcome, Amy. Hello, and welcome to resilience in life and leadership. And I have been looking forward to this conversation since I read her book. Amy Nord Hughes is joining us today. And I cannot wait to talk to her. Amy, your book, I started to read and could not put it down. I really, I think I read it in two days. And it was just a captivating read.

Amy Nordhaus: 1:35

Thank you. That is a huge compliment.

Stephanie Olson: 1:37

Absolutely. And, and I'm picky. So. So great job, it's

Amy Nordhaus: 1:43

good to know. Well,

Stephanie Olson: 1:44

it is a great book called preyed upon and a twist of words. So I am going to let Amy just share a little bit about her story and how she got to where she is because you have quite a story.

Amy Nordhaus: 2:02

Yeah, thank you. Um, basically, I had a lot of childhood sexual abuse. And it just kind of kept reoccurring, I think I had maybe six different incidences of different people over my lifetime. And I just, you know, I didn't understand why this, why that kept happening to me, and why I seem to have a target on my back. And so fast forward to 2013, I was married with three children. And I thought I would give therapy another try. I just really lingering depression that I felt like I never could shake. And I wanted to work on you know, issues surrounding parenting. And my marriage was really disconnected at the time. So I wanted to work on strengthening that. So that is how I ended up in this man's office. He not only was he a therapist, he was also a psychiatrist. And he was an elder of my church. And, you know, that was really what, you know, allow me to trust you feel safe, right there. Yeah, yeah. And I had just started this new church in in 2012. And I had kind of fallen away from my faith, and then had kind of renewed it and 2012 and so it's really kind of in a, in a naive place. You know, with my faith, I was really excited. I was seeing God and not show up in my life, you know, in amazing ways for the first time, right? And so here I was with this. Well, and I love my pastor, I should say that, and my friends love this therapist. So when I got the opportunity to work with them, I thought, wow, this is a God thing. I am so lucky. You know, this is I'm sure this is a God thing. And he wants me here, you know, to kind of once and for all address these issues surrounding sexual abuse and depression and things like that.

Stephanie Olson: 3:57

Wow. So So now, you said that you had fallen away from your faith a little bit? What did what did that look like and coming back into faith because that's a when we get further into your story, and what happens? That's a pretty profound thing. When we're talking about somebody who you trust somebody who you think is safe, and somebody who you think God has led you to?

Amy Nordhaus: 4:30

Oh, yeah, I you know, all those things kind of came together in a perfect storm, but I grew up Catholic and I never missed church, you know, really my entire life up until probably my early 40s. And, you know, sadly for me, it was kind of more of a guilt, you know, based relationship. I I didn't really understand God, I didn't understand this whole life idea that he had, you know, I had a lot of anger and bitterness and I just thought I I felt like I was praying and I felt like he never answered. And you know, that was probably because I had such a wall of anger up. But, you know, I didn't realize that. And so in 2010, my younger sister passed away. And that very, that was, thank you, that was kind of a breaking point. And I stopped going to church stopped, you know, my husband had stopped before me, he also grew up Catholic, and then we all stopped, and I just, I just didn't know where to go or what to do. But I just knew what I was doing wasn't working. So in 2012, I found Celebrate Recovery. Have you heard of that?

Stephanie Olson: 5:37

I actually was a part of Celebrate Recovery for a while. Yeah.

Amy Nordhaus: 5:41

So you know, it can do really good healing. And yeah, so and I

Stephanie Olson: 5:46

basically explain Celebrate Recovery for anybody who hasn't been a part of it. And it's a

Amy Nordhaus: 5:51

great resource it is for as a Christian 12 Step group for life's hurts habits and hang up. So, you know, you don't have to be an alcoholic, you don't, you know, you can go for relationship issues or anything. And so I started attending that, and I did a step study through them. And that's really where I kind of maybe worked through my issues with God and my anger towards God. And yeah, and allowed him you know, I think that then allowed him to come in. And so that's why I say, you know, my faith was really on fire at this time. And, and you know, how you get you get kind of like, a child like, you know, you're like, oh, it's that's a God thing. And that's everywhere. And it's, it's sad, because, you know, he took advantage of that, but, right.

Stephanie Olson: 6:40

Yeah, right. So was the new was your church? Is that how you found the church is through the Celebrate Recovery group? Yes. So

Amy Nordhaus: 6:50

I started attending this nondenominational Christian church that hosts with the Celebrate Recovery, and I fell in love with it, and, you know, really respected my pastors very intelligent. And, and then I found out I, I think I mentioned this earlier, but then I found out that this doctor was an elder there. Yeah, okay. Yeah. On the prayer team. And so I thought, I'm very well respected. Yes. And,

Stephanie Olson: 7:13

oh, go ahead.

Amy Nordhaus: 7:14

I was gonna say, you know, I didn't even know adults could be groomed. If you asked me, if I could be groomed, I probably would say, No, I wouldn't. I would know I would, wouldn't fall for that. So it's very humbling. But that's one of the main reasons I wanted to write the book is because, you know, I want other adults that does not have to carry that shame. And I want you know, onlookers to understand that adults can be manipulated, they are all the time you're in therapy, and workplaces, all kinds of settings. And, and I, you know, it's not a situation where you can give consent, because correct, you don't have any power in the relationship and correct. That's what a lot of people don't realize,

Stephanie Olson: 7:59

you know, in my day job, I run a nonprofit, and we do prevention education on human trafficking, social media, safety and healthy relationships. And we go into the schools and talk to kiddos. But we also talk to adults of all kinds and consent and grooming are two, just two pieces, there's more that are weaved into every single one of our presentations. Because if somebody is good at grooming, and especially those first three steps where, you know, they target you, they gain your trust, they feel a need, if they're good at those first three steps, the isolation, the sexualization and the maintaining control is so much easier for them. And we I that coercion piece, that manipulation piece, if somebody's good at manipulating, you don't know you're being manipulated, child or adult. Yeah.

Amy Nordhaus: 9:03

I read, I think it was even today. I think it said consent cannot be given in a situation where saying no is not an option, correct? Yes. And there is you don't say no to an authority figure or a doctor or a pastor, or at least it doesn't feel like you have that right. Exact No. And then you add childhood abuse on top of that, that just to take the array, you're the your right to say no, you feel that you don't have that right anymore. That's

Stephanie Olson: 9:36

right. Yeah, you're you're absolutely right. And that's, that's actually the exact thing that we teach and we say yes, there's not a yes. If no, is not an option. That's exactly that. And, and I think that when you're a child, and those things have been removed from you, and then somebody comes along, who is Somebody who appear safe who appears trustworthy, that that just it muddies that so much. Yeah. Okay, so, so you found him, you made an appointment. And then what? What happens?

Amy Nordhaus: 10:19

So I start seeing him in April of 2013. And I see him once a week, he started the sessions with prayer, which I thought was really cool. And he took a very unique kind of odd approach to therapy, where he kept it more in the spiritual realm. And, you know, I was open to that, because I had grown up hearing a lot of talk of evil spirits, causing different things, you know, causing drug addiction or causing depression. And so he suggested that that was the reason that I had depression. So it was, it was a lot to swallow. I'm not gonna lie, but I thought, You know what, Amy, you've tried everything else? Do you have any other options? You know, and that's that inner critic that kicks in, you've been depressed, and you don't know what to do? So how are you? Why are you critical to this doctor that,

Stephanie Olson: 11:10

like, that, obviously knows more than you do? Well, yeah,

Amy Nordhaus: 11:13

like I have my plans worked, right. So it's kind of like, just go with it and see, and, you know, it felt like I was getting better. But I think just having someone to talk to each week, and somewhere where I felt safe, and I felt heard and seen, you know, was, it gives you kind of a rush, you know, and that's a good thing. That's how, when you're starting to get some needs met, that maybe haven't been met. It was probably about seven months, maybe into it, when there was like a huge red flag. And that was, he offers to rub my feet or my shoulders for Christmas present. And I just panic, and I freeze as I tend to do in these situations. So uncomfortable, so awkward, like, and you know, I could just hear in my head just at backline just pick one, like, the silence is deafening. And just, you know, it's it even shocks me and I went through it. That No, thank you wasn't an option. Right? Like, why was that not an option, you know, and it just felt like, you know, he had done a lot to, you know, he had groomed me enough where he seemed like a sensitive soul and, you know, was trying his hardest to make me feel cared about and heard and seen. So I'm, you know, kind of going looking through that lens, like, he's trying to go above and beyond to make you feel great, special and cared about because you deserve that. And God wants you to have that. And, and it's okay, he's a safe, he's a grandfather for crying out loud. Which he was and he wasn't at all. Like, there was, you know, attraction wasn't right. Right. So my mind couldn't even fathom that. Yes. And so yeah, I think I said shoulders and then I, and then as soon as he came over and sat by me, it felt very creepy. And I said, our feet, feet just to get him back. And I made myself put my feet up on the ottoman and let him give me a foot rub. And, you know, it's just, anyway, effort, if, you know, red flags continued after that, but each red flag, you know, and I kind of show in the book, the argument in my head as I'm kind of watching this in horror, and then I have another voice saying, answering this is uncomfortable and, and you know, You're so sensitive, and it's just feet, like, what's the problem? And you know, you're, you worry about everything kind of thing. And so, and, you know, afterwards, when this was all said and done, I thought to myself, one of the ways I could go easier on myself and forgive myself was the fact that in my brain, it was much more likely. That was something about me that made his offer, you know, made his offer feel so uncomfortable. It was your fault, right? Yeah. Because he wouldn't, if he's offering it, then it's a good thing. If you're uncomfortable, you have issues and you need to work through them. Absolutely. You have, you know, you're You're too sensitive, you're too afraid this isn't an abusive situation, like you got to calm down. He's trying to show you safe nurturing. These are all these other thinking. And, you know, it's not that likely that he's an evil sociopath. Right? No, we don't. We don't know to even consider that. Right. So

Stephanie Olson: 14:35

yeah. And somebody who has been grooming you, because that began from the moment you sat down in his office. You again, somebody who is doing that, well. You've already been set up to feel guilt, to say no. Right? And that's really important for people.

Amy Nordhaus: 14:57

Yeah, they won't they won't make a bold move like that until they know that they have you hooked. That's right. You know, they, you know, they talk about mirroring, you know, they figure out what your voids are early on, and then they mirror those back to you like a chameleon they are whatever it is that you need, you know, right. And then when these voids start to get filled, that you don't even realize this is happening. You, you feel better. And that was your spirits. And you think this is helping? Well, no, it's manipulation in progress is what it is. But But yes, that's a very important point. People can look at that what I just said or hear and think well, I mean, I would never Yeah, why would always say no to that. Why would you let somebody do that? Right. Yeah, the seven months that he put in, you know, before he could do that,

Stephanie Olson: 15:43

well, and I think people to need to recognize that. Grooming is a long process. It doesn't happen overnight. It's something that a, somebody who wants to do someone harm is going to take the time to groom and groom well, because that is to their advantage that makes you whatever they want to really be loyal to stick around to that's that's a really important part of that. Yeah. Okay. So, so it started with just, you know, let me just rub your feet for Christmas present, then, then what happened next? And what was kind of the direction of where you were thinking,

Amy Nordhaus: 16:33

you know, weird, it was uncomfortable. And then, of course, I told myself, oh, you know, and this is true. I always used to force my sisters to read my feet when I was a kid. And I was like, Maybe I told him that he's just trying to make me feel heard, you know, but eventually, it was no big deal. I was like, it's not a big deal. I mean, it's my feet. He touched my socks, like, right. And, you know, he was still back, you know, across from me. After the first of the year, I noticed something else he, I had, I went to a secretary with one of my statements, and I said, You guys aren't getting paid, because it's the first of the year. So my insurance is only going to deductible. So you're, you know, y'all aren't being paid right now, where they had been being paid through insurance. And she said, Oh, no, and she made up some excuse. And I can see the doctor smile in the background. And again, same pit in my stomach, say nervous feeling. Like, like, I just want to pay, you know, write that right? Like, and then the voices in my head are like, I make myself sound a little kooky saying the voices in my head, you do not you I get it. Yes, the inner voice is like, okay, just think about it is I mean, I think I say in my book, like, are you going to bankrupt him, like, he's a doctor, like it's and you know, it's going to eventually my insurance is going to start paying in a couple of months. And so it's just a nice gesture. And, you know, I had told him that I had a lot of issues surrounding feeling like a financial liability growing up. And so you know, he was taking things that I was sharing, and then getting ideas of how he could use them. So it fit in perfectly with that scenario. So you know, that was another one that I didn't realize was a, like, was a red flag. I didn't realize. Or I minimize it and rationalized it. And I think, you know, there was there were several more, but then by May of 2014, so I've been going now for a year and a month. Oh, and I should say that my sessions eventually, like morphed into two hours, right? To not ask for that. It was uncomfortable and a little embarrassing. And then after I accepted it, I was like, Oh, I kind of like it, you know? Yeah, yeah, he likes me. You know, I'm probably like one of his favorites. And, and I need the two hours, you know, clearly I have all these evil spirits and all these issues. I need that to our

Stephanie Olson: 18:54

site. And let me just let me just backtrack on that. Because he started to tell you that you were dealing in witchcraft, the very end. Oh, that wasn't until later.

Amy Nordhaus: 19:08

Yeah, I was praying away. It was, you know, there's I must be multiple personalities, even though I said, Well, how can I be when I have no awareness of that? Oh, well, part of you knows when like, right, then we all can have that right. But again, it was spiritual. So I kind of let that slide. And I mean, I knew I didn't have that disorder. But the way he phrased it was we were just looking for parts of me that had split off which to me was different ages that had significant trauma. Just so for me, it was just picking that part picking that age. And he would pray away and the evil that was there. And again, it seemed like it was working and whenever I would think this is a joke, this this is the silliest thing I've ever heard of I would wonder if I was offending God because it was also spiritual, right and And I'm like, Who am I make Who am I criticizing here? And you know, he said the Holy Spirit was his boss and everything was about. So praying away the evil, bringing Jesus into that space and imagining some spiritual armor. This was what we did week after week after week. But for me, in a way, some of the experiences seemed like real spiritual experiences, you know, like imagining Jesus coming to me at this Broken Age, you know, whatever it was seven. And so it did bring some comfort and healing just in the process. But yes, I said, at the very end, weeks before I leave, he brings up witchcraft, and I'm like, Okay, I took the evil spirits. But are you I said, I literally said, Don't you think I would know if I attended what monthly witchcraft meetings? This is? Oh, well, a part of you remembers.

Stephanie Olson: 20:55

So yeah, so there was a big. So there was a big di D. Dissociative? Yes, identity disorder that he was saying, that you had multiple personalities for is what that used to be called. And so at the end, he was saying, essentially, yeah, well, a portion of you knows that you are experiencing that. But not every personality knows that you're

Amy Nordhaus: 21:27

experienced. Yeah. And if that's true, then all of us could have the ID, because none of us know that we have it. Right. Right. You know, by then I was on my way out. So there was I was like, That is insane. But you know, I think I had one session where we did some prayer involving that. And, yeah, that was one of one of the things that helped me get out.

Stephanie Olson: 21:50

Yeah. Okay. So I jumped. I jumped the gun, then. So sorry about that. So, okay, well, now. Now you're feeling he really starts to progress. Some

Amy Nordhaus: 22:04

Jani starts to move the father daughter relationship that we'd had this whole time he starts to move it into the romantic, which was super awkward and uncomfortable. And I just, it just began this kind of frantic prayer on my part of like God, or are you trying to tell me to get out or a saint and trying to take away something good they gave me? Yeah. And I knew that God didn't want me in an emotional affair with this man. But we were weren't really doing anything. And I wasn't an emotional affair. I just knew the doctor was at times crossing that line. And I thought, well, if I tell him how much it's hurting me, and stressing me, he'll stop and think it'll be safe and good again. But that's how it kind of started is he had to kind of start morphing into that direction and and then it was in May a year and a month out that he just blatantly assaults me. I know it's wrong. There's no confusion. I just start crying and crying and saying, I can't survive this. I can't believe I mean, I just, it was this like, I think I'd say in my book, it was just like TV, static. Everything was flooding in from all the abusers in my life were flooding in. And I cannot believe that you this safe grandfatherly angel that God sent me just did to me, while you're supposedly trying to help me heal from like, I couldn't believe it. And, you know, and I want to say, you know, going back to the grooming, we as victims don't know how to link these red flags together, spaced out, they're far apart, they're different. So this I did not see coming in a million years. And I did go to my close friend who was my mentor, and celebrate recovery. And she was the pastor's wife. And she essentially took his side and didn't want to deal with it. Because he was an elder at that church. So it was Yeah, yeah. The stating

Stephanie Olson: 23:58

devastate that was, that was probably the most heartbreaking point of the book. And I know that there was an audible, like, from from me as I was reading that. I just and I was trying to put myself in your friend's shoes and trying to think, Okay, how would I respond what, but there was nothing about that, that I could not just embrace you and say, I am so sorry, that happened. It was not your fault. What that was, that was so hard for me and ultimately, the friendship ended because of this, but, but I'm not. I don't think you can necessarily speak to what in the world that is. But now what is that?

Amy Nordhaus: 24:57

I know and I've wondered that too. And I thought of a couple of things. And of course, I'm just guessing, but yeah, part of me thought, well, you know, maybe sexual abuse in her history causes her to put the blame on the victim, okay? Or, you know, the logical, more logical one is that it was going to be messy, because it was going to cause a big uproar in the church. And, you know, but that's what hurts so much. And I, it's probably one of the more painful moments for me of the entire story is that we were so close, and she knew me. And I'd already told her so many other things that I didn't know, were red flags, you know, just right. And, you know, she said later, you know, I just didn't think I could go to the elders with just that. And just that, wow, all of us are up against. Yeah, when we're deciding if we want to tell or not. Because I was like, Well, what would it have had to have been to be more than just that?

Stephanie Olson: 26:06

Correct. And I think that's what, that's why people don't report. Yes. That is why because they are so afraid, they're not going to be believed. They're so afraid that people are going to take the perpetrator side. And, and so for that to happen in your story, I mean, devastating almost seems like a mild word. I just cannot imagine what you must have experienced. Yeah, it.

Amy Nordhaus: 26:37

I mean, I don't know, it's like it quadruples, the damage, the damage done to your just the betrayal, it was just so much more than even what the doctor did. Because I had a relationship with her. You know, the doctor, I did not have a personal relationship with him, right. But anyway, so I, eventually he, I'm so broken that, and then when my closest friend doesn't believe me, I feel like I have no one because I felt like I wanted to tell my husband so bad at this point. But I felt like, if I told him that he would have more questions for me that that would implicate me, or make me feel in the wrong when I knew I wasn't in the wrong, but I didn't know. You know, I just felt like it was gonna be well, why was he sitting next to you? Right? What? Like, what kind of a loser Are you that you enjoyed getting, you know, feeling special from your counselor? Or which we all do the right thing? Or, you know, what a loser these are? These are my old messages, you know, what a loser you are that, that you thought that you could get safe, nurturing, you know, from a male? And what a loser Are you that you thought this was a God thing, you know, so I just, I had so much of my own, like self hatred, and that's what abusers count on. Yes, they do. They know that we've been abused before they know the messages that are gonna play on our head. So they know they're pretty safe. I mean, absolutely, in taking an advantage because they know what we're going to do to ourselves, right. And we're going to be right ourselves more than we're going to even be right there. So I was desperate for help them. And I had no one. I mean, considering I didn't want to tell my husband because right, I thought he would. I don't know, like, I felt like I was telling myself, like, listen to this bad thing that I did, you know,

Stephanie Olson: 28:30

well, especially after you tell your best friend who is the pastor's wife, who has been a part of this support group with you? And doesn't believe you that would just aggravate any thoughts? I'm gonna tell the person closest to me, my husband, you know,

Amy Nordhaus: 28:51

I was so depressed after that. And my husband and I were not connected at this time. So, you know, he wasn't somebody that I would go to with something like this Saturday ideas now. But so the doctor, you know, produced a tear or two, and, you know, cried and apologized and weaseled his way back in and I went back not really, because I felt like I got a heartfelt apology. Although I did feel like he apologized. I also felt like he slipped up and it would never happen again. And that it's my it's the flaws in me that wanted a father figure when I'm an adult. That this happened, like if I hadn't have one of that I wouldn't have asked him to sit next to me and he wouldn't have done this, but I didn't ask him to sit next to me. He came over and then so and either if you would have Yeah, even if I would have right, you know, is that is your professional? Yes, yes. Um, and yeah, you're right. But I these are all the things that we're going through salutely Yeah, yeah. So, so I end up going back and that was an A I'm there for another month in a week. But at this point, you have to realize I was seeing him. Starting in June, I was seeing him twice a week for three hours. Yeah. So that's a lot of hours that I was with him. And I just, you know, I, I knew that I needed to get out that couldn't break that tie. Yeah, I don't know, if you have, you know, with with sex trafficking and working in that area. What do you how do you speak to that, that, you know, you're the person why are you attached to the person that you realize is hurting you? Yeah,

Stephanie Olson: 30:34

that bond is very huge. But that's what the grooming process does. And when you look at anybody who is bonded to their abuser, which is what happens with a good abuser, you know, you can equate that to so many things. That's the same type of scenario that happens with sex trafficking, yes, but also domestic violence, child molestation, all of those things, because that then becomes your loyalty. Right. And it's, it is so hard to escape. And it's also hard, I think, for people to understand because the mindset of why didn't you just leave? And that's a good question.

Amy Nordhaus: 31:25

Yeah. And that's why most of my book is the grooming process so that outsiders can say, Well, I kind of can see that, you know, maybe they don't relate to it, but they can at least be kinder, you know, people come forward. And you know, it's like, it's just like, creating a drug addiction and someone, they create an emotional addiction, that then you can't live without, you don't even realize it. That's right. You just You just need whatever it is this thing is that they're providing, you know, right. And so you go back and yeah, you're right. I, I mean, I know, I didn't leave, you know, he made me feel sorry for him. And you told me it would kill him if I left. And so how can I up and abandoned him after one mistake? When he'd been helping me for the first? You know, 12 months? It's a trauma bond. Yeah, it's confusing. It's, you know, even when I and I'm jumping ahead, but even once I was out, I say this other victims that are struggling with this other adult victims, I still felt attached. Even I knew I needed out, I knew it wasn't dangerous, right. But I still had somewhat of an attachment, which was very weird. And I remember thinking, if I ever saw him in public, pardon me, wanted to punch him in the face and part of me wanting to hug him. And just be like, Please, God help me. I've been through this terrible thing. So yes, it is very confusing. And it took. So in there were just like the grooming had so many layers. The detachment process had layers. Yes, yes. And I had to be patient with myself and allow that to, you know,

Stephanie Olson: 33:03

absolutely. He created something. And when I think when we think about bonds, when somebody fills a need of yours that seemingly no one else in your life is filling. That bond is so strong. And when you think about, you know, glue, I mean, it is very much a trauma bond is very much like a glue, you cannot just separate that is painful. And although people don't understand that, it is something that is extremely painful. So trauma on top of trauma on top of trauma.

Amy Nordhaus: 33:46

Yeah, it, you know, it helped, I was able to eventually speak with another victim and compare stories, you know, and even in doing that, part of me was just was kind of detached from it, and just like, oh my gosh, I cannot believe that and part of me felt so hurt. I'm like, so I wasn't special at all. Yes. Using the same lines on other people. Like, it was like I was that was still surprising. Yeah. Because that is how strong that bond is. And that attachment and that's why they groom for, you know, some years or sometimes before they make a move and, and you know, they also have to groom everyone around them. And he has done a good job a good enough job that people did not, you know, suspected at all.

Stephanie Olson: 34:31

So, it is it is horrifying now. He was also married. And so, so talk about when this kind of blew up because it finally did that it all came out.

Amy Nordhaus: 34:48

Yeah. I wanted to leave and never tell a soul, which I kind of chuckle about now because I have written a book. Yes. Plan A was leaving, don't tell anybody and go on If your life plan B was okay, I cannot leave. Somebody's got to help me like just sit with me for for one of my sessions, so I don't cave. So I ended up going back to my pastor's wife because she's the only other one I know to tell. And her husband walks through the room, the pastor, and I told him everything. As soon as I was done telling her and he, you know, kind of said, What do you need from us? And, you know, he seemed like, he believed me, I'm sure he was in shock. And I said, I just need someone to sit with me, you know. And so I had a session the next day. Laurie sat with me for those three hours, he showed up, my pastor showed up towards the end of that, and sure enough, you know, the doctor called like, nine times, and I felt myself wanting to K. And he felt he sounded really sad and thought, well, you'd have one hour left of your appointment if you just want to talk on the phone. And anyway, so needless to say, she was there to make sure I didn't do that. But that's exactly why I needed somebody and I just feel like these kinds of situations. I don't know how anybody

Stephanie Olson: 36:01

gets out alone. No, right.

Amy Nordhaus: 36:04

Or they do but they go back. I mean, somebody was really and so I knew three hour time slot was over, that I wouldn't go back. Yeah, I was still attached. And I felt like guilty for turning him in. And I felt like, would he kill himself? And have I devastated him? I felt all the emotions, but I

Stephanie Olson: 36:21

thinking about him the entire time. Yeah, yes.

Amy Nordhaus: 36:25

And at least but at least I knew I was not going to go back. It was kind of like, the first tie was broken. So I had a pre planned vacation a week later that I went on with a friend. And I kind of sorted I just was processing and realizing, oh, my gosh, I think I was being groomed and and I think that I think well, this, I went back to this event, then Oh, yeah. Listen, well, then it started here. And eventually I realize it starts on day one. And my friend is a mandated reporter and told me she was going to report and I was like, I don't want you to report I don't want anyone to know, like, like, my husband will find out like the whole town will find out and I'll be mocked and judged. And so anyway, she eventually

Stephanie Olson: 37:10

finally found somebody who did believe you and responded in a way that was appropriate.

Amy Nordhaus: 37:17

Yes. And said, Absolutely. He will. He will be reported. Right. And, you know, so that's kind of how I left that trip. And she did make a complaint. And then it was months later, I thought I felt like I had no strength to make a complaint myself. And as it turned out, they called me like the very next day, which was good, because I was like, I don't know how to tell this story. It's like a little box. It says in 1000 words or less tell what happened. Like, no, maybe I won't report. Anyway, I knew she had. So they called me and it was a very good process. And I had already told my husband everything because I felt like it was the right thing to do. Yeah. That was horrible. And he had to process through. Was this an affair? You know? And he eventually, obviously came to terms with no, it absolutely was absolutely not something I would ever do and not consensual. No. And so, you know, our healing process kind of began, it was like we had to start over from ground zero. But God, you know, use this to rebuild our relationship into something that was stronger than it was before. And that's one of the greatest blessings of this whole thing. But after the medical board process started, somebody had gone to the local newspaper was on the front page. I did not go to the paper. So I knew somebody else was angry. Right? A doctor and his wife lived a block away from me. He pretended to retire and moved away. Eventually, the medical board allows him to surrender his license permanently. They don't. They told me they'd only issued five permanent surrenders in the last 20 years. Most doctors can reapply after one year. That was some sense of justice. Right? That's serious. Yeah. I mean, that made me feel good. And like, just just the fact that strangers were willing to go to bat for me, it was not something I'd ever experienced in my life. Yes. It was mind blowing to me, that me just me would be enough to take action. Yeah, it's sad, but it's true. Right? And because yeah, I haven't learned to the other victim yet. But if eventually she came forward and we connected, and then I eventually filed a civil suit, which was a malpractice suit, since he was a medical doctor and I did that because therapist abuses only illegal and half of the states in our country. It is not illegal here. It is not criminally illegal

Stephanie Olson: 39:49

here. That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Amy Nordhaus: 39:54

I know. Because I think you know, and I've been taken advantage of by a physician in a doctor office before I was in my early 20s, you know, but usually there's nurses sometimes. Yeah, the room, or I think they're supposed to be, you know, when you go into a therapist office, it's just Yep. You know, just do battles. Yeah. And you know, what's really sad is that, you know, he threatened other victims with, well, once you become a psychiatric patient, nobody's going to believe you. So you're really a sitting duck. And that's why I really want to fight for legislation on that, because they can say you're mentally ill. In fact, he did. He initially told some of his friends that I was delusional. And I imagine I imagined all of that. Wow. And it just Oh. But you have little to stand on when it's a doctor, and you and you're the one that sought counseling. So you can see the inherent dangers there.

Stephanie Olson: 40:49

But absolutely. Well, and I, what your book is so courageous, and what you went through, is absolutely horrific. But what you're doing today through this is making a difference for anybody who has experienced any type of abuse. And yes, definitely abuse with a therapist, but there's so much more to this story that is just such a blessing to others. And one of the things that is we tell people all the time, is tell until tell somebody until they believe you. And that's not an easy thing to do. So when I look at, I mean, truly brave, courageous thing that you went through, and you have followed through in this in this way. And I'm just your story is truly inspirational. Amy, I just,

Amy Nordhaus: 42:02

and I love that you say that to your victims too, because or those you're trying to educate us, right? And that is one of the hugest things that I've learned is you have to keep telling. But I am not let the first rejection to devastate you like it did me because then what did I do? retreated back to the abuser? Of course, you know, and you just Yeah, and prepare that there's going to be rejections. Because, you know, one thing I've learned is, people do not like their little world to be rocked. They do not like their little bubble to be rocked, and they don't. They especially don't like to admit that they could be manipulated that they didn't see this that, you know, what does that say about them that they didn't catch this? Right? They'd much rather blame the victim than look at that.

Stephanie Olson: 42:46

Absolutely. And I think too, when you're dealing with something that I mean, we've got the church, we've got he's a leader, an elder in the church, we've got I mean, there's so much to the story that, really, it's people want to shove things under the rug, and we're just going to pretend that did not happen. Because it is, first of all, I think a lot of us have, I'm not really sure I put myself in this category. But a lot of people have a hard time imagining that something like this could even happen, that there are people this evil, and I'll call it what it is. It's evil.

Amy Nordhaus: 43:33

I don't really see that on TV. Right? I've never met anyone I it is mind blowing. And that is what I had to realize, to fully to be able to leave, I needed to know 100% I needed to see that evil and see the cruelty that could because otherwise then he's playing on my emotions and my empathy and my guilt actually, when I saw absolute coldness, and evil in his eyes, then, you know, I was able to accept it. But it's shocking. I didn't. Because I've never seen that before my life. Right. Right. And it's like you said, you can't even really believe it even as you're saying.

Stephanie Olson: 44:08

Yeah, yeah. It's it's, it's, it truly is. It that type of abuse is absolutely insidious. And it it I mean, to say it's unsettling is is not not speaking strongly enough. So, talk to me a little bit about your faith journey in this because I would think that you know, you are so excited to be a part of that church. This is God God is putting this in your path. He's bringing you healing, this is something so exciting. And then boom, I mean, talk about the rug being pulled out from under your feet, and yet, and not that you weren't angry, not that you weren't, you know, What in the world? But it you, it really did cause you to turn back to God instead of a way.

Amy Nordhaus: 45:12

Yes. And people ask me, you know, how did you do that? And I really, the only answer I have for that is that I spent so much of my life distant, you know, shut off, shut down, angry, bitter, resentful towards God thinking he couldn't answer as he couldn't interact with us. And that was such a dark place to be. And, you know, I don't know, if God, you know, knew this was coming, but I just felt like that. He came into my life when I realized he was real and tangible and could answer me and interact with me, it was such a game changer that even something of this magnitude did not shake my faith, you know, had I not had that experience just right before that, I think this could have tanked me, like forever. But so having said that, you know, during the abuse, you know, I always knew that he was, you know, kind of there, you know, I mean, at first I didn't know, anything was wrong, so, right, right, after, you know, but towards the end, I knew that it was him prompt trying to prompt me trying to wave his hands at me and try to warn me to leave, I knew that was him. So it wasn't that I know, I feel like some people think God turned his back on me, and therefore this happened. But, you know, I always had the awareness that he was there trying to warn me and it was me saying, no, no, I mean, no, it's okay, I'm gonna fix it, you know, I'm gonna make the doctor know, he's hurting me. And then he's gonna stop. So it was, you know, me kind of telling God, just give me give me another chance. So Right. And that was just, I'm not saying that, that it's my fault that I was abused. But I'm just saying that I could see my role. And I knew God was present. And then excuse me, when I got out. And I went on this trip it would he God shows up for me in amazing ways. Really powerful ways. Because I am, it was, by far the lowest I have ever been in my entire life, or Yeah, it didn't feel survivable. And you know, and I have wonderful children. And you know, and but a week after I got out, I didn't see how I could survive. For sure, I wasn't gonna come home and tell anybody, but the shame and self hatred were so heavy that I didn't think I could survive, and I just wanted God to take me to Heaven. And you know, he, he just showed up for me just and just kind of kept me I feel like he kept me standing on my feet. I mean, I just, I could barely eat I sleep without clean to him. I just don't. You know, I kind of feel like, from that point, until I don't know how far out he was kind of carrying me. Yeah. And saying, no, no, it's okay. And just stay in today. You know, we're just going to do today. And then when I came home, he was still kind of show it showing up. And I thought, oh, my gosh, I thought I didn't know you would keep, you know, surprising me. And he's, you know, like he had in on that trip and write. And I know, it was him that gave me the courage. And I just clung to scriptures, because the desire to defend yourself is so strong, when you come forward any at any age, but especially as an adult, and it was just by clinging to God, word that I was able to, you know, not go crazy, just you know, I am your defender, you know, Vengeance is fine, you know, there were so many scriptures I clung to so amazingly, this experience did strengthen my faith. Where it would have been easy for it not to but

Stephanie Olson: 48:58

you know, and the beauty of God. And this is, I think, so many people will think things like, Well, why would God? You know, if God is a loving God, why do bad things happen? Those types of things? Yeah. And I think that, you know, we do have an extremely loving God, and we are in an extremely sinful, fallen world. Yeah. And he allows things to happen, but he doesn't cause those things to happen. And even when he allows those things he walks and your story is so such a beautiful example of just like Christ walking with you the entire time. And I think that is just such a huge part of This story and, and I will I will tell you when I first opened your book, my fear was, if that's if that's a good was that the story was going to end with you deciding that God was just not around. And so the fact that that was not the case was just absolutely so beautiful. And that we can see the difference between God's mercy and that His mercies are new every morning. And he walks us through those things that are impossible to go through without him.

Amy Nordhaus: 50:49

I couldn't have survived it without him. Yeah, and that's why, you know, and I'm glad you brought that up, because there are so many, like universal themes to the story. You know, one of them being what we just talked about that, you know, God can still be present. And, you know, because we are, he doesn't interfere with our freewill. Yeah. That, you know, these things do happen, but he can still be present and be a loving God at the same time. Yeah. And also, just the way that, you know, the early abuse sets us up for the for adult abuse, right, you know, is another thing that and it doesn't have to be sexual abuse, you know, it can be any kind of abuse that kind of shaped you and kind of, I say, it alters the trajectory of your life. We all kind of can experience that to different degrees. Yeah. And we all are probably our worst enemies. And we all, you know, are tend to be our worst enemies, and our worst critic, and it's often that self hatred, or, you know, those negative tapes that we play, that keep us imprisoned. And so, you know, God used this abuse to not only free me from this predator, but to free me from myself, and the prison that I had myself and that I didn't even realize I was night. And you know, in the book, they're listed as rules, old rules and new rules. But I just

Stephanie Olson: 52:23

I loved that, by the way. Thank you. That was amazing. But I've

Amy Nordhaus: 52:27

had people that don't have any of us in their background, say I have some of those rules, you know. So there's that's also something that's very universal to the story.

Stephanie Olson: 52:36

Wow. So today, what are you? What are you doing? What? I know that you kind of cut off ties with that church? And you wrote the book? What does your world look like today?

Amy Nordhaus: 52:55

Well, I am very blessed that I have a wonderful close marriage, and my children are all thriving, because they suffered during this time as well, in a huge way. So I'm so excited about that. And I am just trying to promote the book as best I can to get the story out there. That's a lot of what I'm doing. I'm trying to be support for other adult victims. And it is just such a gift when somebody says, you know, you gave me the courage to tell or, you know, you can't be as hard on yourself, when you read somebody else that went through the exact same thing. I mean, you absolutely are holding yourself accountable that you can say, okay, maybe just maybe it isn't all my fault. Right. Right. And that's one of the biggest, you know, goals of the book really is. That's a gift. And then I would like to start speaking, you know, if COVID allows us ever to get together. Ya know, I've been doing more podcasts, interviews, but I would just absolutely love to find different audiences. Like I even was thinking more recently, as is the 20 Somethings. And I hadn't thought of them originally, when I wrote the book. I thought of an older audience, but you know, those are the those are the ones you know, that may be going into counseling and that yeah, they don't really know the difference between a nice counselor and the counselor. That's grooming you because Right. I mean, you get what I'm saying. Some of those things are a little bit of a gray area. Yeah. So yeah, just really trying to I'm trying to do what God wants me to do. I'm trying to follow his lead. I don't always know what he wants me to do next.

Stephanie Olson: 54:35

Well, isn't that the truth? Boy, yeah, I'm

Amy Nordhaus: 54:37

trying to not walk ahead of him. And I'm just trying to say, kind of show me what to do next. And, you know, there was a time when I told God Yeah, I don't I'm not going to write the book anymore was a cool idea. It was fun. Thanks. But I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. And you know, he, he basically told me yes, we are going to do that. So Right. So yeah, that's kind of

Stephanie Olson: 54:57

what you still win. At So,

Amy Nordhaus: 55:01

I guess he got his way. So I'm not just kind of where I am is like, I feel like it's, I don't know, just trying to help as many that, that I can and be a beacon of light, you know, for those that that need it?

Stephanie Olson: 55:17

Well, that you are and, and your book is so powerful, and I can't eat what it anything I can do to help you. Please please let me know. But how can people find you?

Amy Nordhaus: 55:37

My website? Will it be in the show notes we listed? Okay, so I won't spell it like I usually do like a dork, but it's www dot ami ne.com. And you can buy a sign paper paperback book there, you can email me there. There's as many resources as I've been able to put together there. And then my paperback is also an Amazon and other stores. My ebook is on Amazon. And it's in Kindle Unlimited. But to reach me my website, and it'll have my social media links and things like that. And I respond to anybody that reaches out to me. Well,

Stephanie Olson: 56:11

thank you so much. I just, you have done amazing work, not only on yourself, but others and really taken your trauma, and really turned it into something incredible to help other people. So I just admire you very much. Final question. What does resilience mean to you?

Amy Nordhaus: 56:39

resilience to me means to keep putting one foot in front of the other. Even when you don't know how you don't, you know, you don't know what the next step is. You don't know if you can make it till tomorrow. It's just continuing, you know, to get up and do your best. And like I said, trying to follow God's lead as best you can. But it's just, you know, not giving up.

Stephanie Olson: 57:06

And you did not. So thank you for that. I am just so grateful that you took time to be on the show. And thank you so much, Amy, for what you're doing, and what you continue to do. And I really appreciate you very much.

Amy Nordhaus: 57:23

Thank you. It's been so much fun talking to you.

Stephanie Olson: 57:25

Thank you. Let's do this again. I would love to. Yeah, a 2.0. Yeah, absolutely. That would be great. And thank you for listening to resilience in life and leadership, and we'll see you next time. Thank you for listening. Please share with anyone you think will benefit from this podcast.