Danielle Bernock: Faith, Family, Friends, and Freedom! Resilience in Life and Leadership 046

Stephanie had a powerful conversation with Danielle Bernock about not only surviving trauma, but "emerging with wings!"

Danielle Bernock founded 4F Media (Faith, Family, Friends, Freedom) in 2014 to promote inner healing and personal freedom through the power of ‘The LOVE that heals’, using all forms of media, beginning with her first book.

The following quote from the book has gone viral:

“Trauma is personal. It does not disappear if it is not validated. When it is ignored or invalidated the silent screams continue internally heard only by the one held captive. When someone enters the pain and hears the screams healing can begin.”
― Danielle Bernock, Emerging With Wings: A True Story of Lies, Pain, And The LOVE that Heals

Danielle is an international, award-winning author, speaker, podcast host, and trauma-informed self-love coach who helps men, women, and organizations EMERGE with clear vision of their value, TAKE ownership of their choices, and CHART a path to their purpose, becoming Victorious Souls who Embrace The Change from survive to thrive through the power of the love of God.

She has authored 4 books, written for numerous online publications, and her stories have been published in two book anthologies. Her mantra is “love yourself from survive to thrive”, and she's known as “that lady on the internet who loves you.” A long time follower of Christ, Danielle lives with her husband in Michigan near her adult children and grandchildren.

For more information or to connect with Danielle https://www.daniellebernock.com/ 
https://victorioussouls.com/ 

Everyone has resilience, but what does that mean and how to we use it in life and leadership? Join Stephanie Olson, expert in resiliency and trauma, every week as she talks to other experts living lives of resilience. Stephanie also shares her own stories of addictions, disordered eating, domestic and sexual violence, abandonment, and trauma; and shares the everyday struggles and joys of everyday life. As a wife, mom, and CEO she gives commentaries, and, sometimes a few rants, to shed light on what makes a person resilient. So, if you have experienced adversity in life in any way, and you want to learn how to better lead your family, your workplace, and, well, your life, this podcast is for you!

https://stephanieolson.com

INSPIRE your team to LEAD WITH SUCCESS and MOTIVATE others with Stephanie bringing 20+ years of speaking experience. If you need to EMPOWER, ENGAGE, and EDUCATE your people-Book Stephanie as your speaker today!

https://www.stephanieolson.com/ask-stephanie-to-speak

Everyone has resilience, but what does that mean, and how do we use it in life and leadership? Join Stephanie Olson, an expert in resiliency and trauma, every week as she talks to other experts living lives of resilience. Stephanie also shares her own stories of addictions, disordered eating, domestic and sexual violence, abandonment, and trauma, and shares the everyday struggles and joys of everyday life. As a wife, mom, and CEO she gives commentaries and, sometimes, a few rants to shed light on what makes a person resilient. So, if you have experienced adversity in life in any way and want to learn how to better lead your family, your workplace, and, well, your life, this podcast is for you!

https://stephanieolson.com

Transcript

Stephanie Olson: 0:03

Welcome to resilience in life and leadership with your host Stephanie Olson, Speaker author addiction, sexual violence and resiliency expert Danielle Bernanke founded four F media faith family friends freedom in 2014 to promote inner healing and personal freedom through the power of the love that heals using all forms of media, beginning with her first book, and the following quote from the book has gone viral. Trauma is personal, it does not disappear if it is not validated. When it is ignored or invalidated. The silence screams continue internally heard only by the one held captive. When someone enters the pain and hears the screams healing can begin. And that is from a merging with wings a true story of lies, pain, and the love that heals. Today Danielle is an international award winning author, speaker podcast host and trauma informed self love coach who helps men women and organizations emerge with clear vision of their value take ownership of their choices, and chart a path for their purpose. Welcome Daniel Burdock. Hello, and welcome to resilience in life and leadership. Danielle, welcome to the show. I'm looking forward to talking to you.

Danielle Bernock: 1:28

Thank you for having me. I'm very excited. Absolutely.

Stephanie Olson: 1:32

So now you're doing a whole bunch of amazing things that I want to hear about. But why don't you tell me what you start with how you got to where you are today, your journey, your journey here.

Danielle Bernock: 1:46

journey here. It's a very lining journey. But the short story is, I suffered a lot of childhood trauma. And later in life, when I had dealt with some of it. I've sat down to write a book and put myself in counseling for that process. Learned the other half of the book while I was writing the book, and in the healing journey, found that my journey resonated with people. And that led to me wanting to help them. Very short, condensed version.

Stephanie Olson: 2:24

Absolutely. And I think that is really what happens so often. So I love how you say, learned the other half of your book, you know, as you're going along. So tell me a little bit about that. As you're writing, I mean, because our stories, we don't know the end of our stories. We don't know, where God's gonna take us and things like that. So tell me a little bit about that you're writing the book. And then what are you what do you see?

Danielle Bernock: 2:59

Well, it was because I was in counseling. Yeah, I put myself in counseling because I was going to be revisiting the painful thing is from my childhood that I was aware of. Yeah, but it was in counseling, that other things were discovered and uncovered. And called out as something that needed to be healed from instead of something that I had dismissed, I just missed the majority of things that happened to me as a child. They were simply normal. They were difficult. They weren't a plane crash, they weren't a tsunami, they weren't the Sandy Hook massacre, crane. So I made them smaller in my eyes. And I needed to just suck it up and just get over it. I had authoritarian parents, which really fed into that. I learned I had something called childhood emotional neglect, although my counselor was not familiar with the term, learn that term. And here we go again, tease that Dr. Denise Webb, I am I'd like work for her marketing team or something. Or she should pay me for advertising. There you go has come up with I don't know if she is the originator, I think so of childhood emotional neglect that term but her book running on empty is, I think revolutionary, how she unveils it in a way that you can really understand and look at your life and see if it does or does not affect you. I read that book and found myself in three of the categories she has 12 different parenting styles that are neglectful. And then the healthy one, she uses a fictitious little boy and he goes through the situation. He comes home and he has this wonderfully nurturing mother and how you know it ought to go. Right? And you could read that. And if you were emotionally neglected, you could just identify that well, that was not me. Yeah, that is not how

Stephanie Olson: 5:10

it was gonna die. Right, exactly. But then

Danielle Bernock: 5:14

she goes through 12 other types. And I found myself in three of them. One of them is the well meaning, but emotionally neglected themselves parents. So they're doing what they know, that was one of the ones of mine. And that is one of the things I want to help people with in my journey a lot. Because it's invisible. It's with abuse and various kinds of trauma, it leaves a mark that there's an incident or there's something that happened that you, you know, see, you know, this happened, you know, you felt this, but with neglect, it's what's missing. Yeah, it's a vacuum. So you don't, you can't look for

Stephanie Olson: 6:00

what it is not tangible.

Danielle Bernock: 6:03

So it's identified by the side effects that you present in your life. And I grew up with that. And that into all the other traumas, they really snowballed quite a bit. And I didn't learn that emotional, neglectful part of my life till I was writing the book and in counseling, because that was one of the things that I said, Well, I grew up, I felt like my parents didn't love me. And I didn't feel like I belonged in my family. And I'm just going on and on, nonchalantly she went way, way, way, way, way. Wait a minute. I'm like what? She said something went terribly wrong. Like, what do you mean, she goes, children go to their parents, they they normally feel loved by them. And she goes on and explains what ought to have been my experience sounds like,

Stephanie Olson: 6:50

really? So can you give an example of what emotional neglect might look like?

Danielle Bernock: 7:01

Well, first off, one of the things that doctors Denise Webb is very careful to do. And I will be very careful also, which no parent is perfect. And if you right screw up one time, you didn't screw up your kid?

Stephanie Olson: 7:13

Yeah, yeah, no, we say that I have as I was raising my children, a college fund and a therapy fund at the same time, right? Because you're gonna mess up.

Danielle Bernock: 7:25

Not everything will leave that mark. Because it takes more than that. It's a pattern, a pattern, it could be, or it's either a pattern, or it's something that is really deeply impactful. Yeah. And it also relates to the child because every child has a different amount of nurture that they need. Sure, I'm everyone, I'm more of a highly sensitive soul. There's HSPs out there highly sensitive people out there. I don't, I don't like own the label, but I am empathic and I am more sensitive. So I needed more nurture, than probably someone who is more stoic, right naturally in their personality, right? Well, my parents were of the generation of children are to be seen and not heard. Shut up and stop crying, or I won't give you something to cry about. Yep. Yep. My mother had communicated to me later, she didn't cry. Because my dad felt that if she cried he, she was trying to manipulate him. So emotions were not really allowed much in my family, except for my brother reminded me about how my dad used to yell at the dinner table, but I don't remember that I really associate it. Yeah, I can associate him remember that. And I guess he used to yell and I guess I had two brothers. I guess my dad, my oldest brother used to yell and scream at each other at the dinner table. I don't remember that. But that is not emotionally healthy.

Stephanie Olson: 9:02

Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. And it's amazing how much our brain protects us from those things, you know, that we can lock those things out?

Danielle Bernock: 9:13

Children? That is that is a normal self protective thing. Yes. And that's one of the evidences of an adult, if they look back on their childhood, and they're like, I don't remember much of anything. Like it's, you know, there's a lot you won't remember when you were young, because you were young. I don't remember being one very much or I mean, to I mean, because I don't know how the brain works in those memories. Sure, sure. No one remembers a whole lot of that because your main brain was forming, right? But if you look back and you see Swiss cheese, or you don't remember anything, chances are you were not emotionally present. Right? For your childhood. And there's a reason for that. Yeah.

Stephanie Olson: 9:54

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So um, so Really, when you're talking about emotional neglect and parenting, it, it can look very different for each child. So there might be some children in a home that might feel emotionally neglected, whereas others feel it was it was okay. Yeah,

Danielle Bernock: 10:21

to the siblings. And it's amazing when they talk to one another, how it is a different perspective with all of them. Right? Right, and what might have hurt one didn't hurt the other and what you know, and then vice versa.

Stephanie Olson: 10:35

So, so tell me about your book and that journey, because I'm sure that that was an extremely healing part of of your your story and what you were were doing. It is,

Danielle Bernock: 10:53

it was, like I said, I knew half about Chapter Nine is called the bullseye. And I think this is where God protected me. Yeah. Because I knew the incident that is unveiled in chapter nine, right? But I didn't know what happened in my soul. I knew that it hurt me. I knew it was bad. I didn't remember a whole lot about it. But diving into it. Chapter nine, the bullseye deals with my public rejection. In front of the church as a child. I was left on the front seat in the front seat front row, yeah, front row of the church, all by myself after they'd called my entire class up in front one at a time reading their names because I went through a whole process of becoming a member, my parents were no longer going to church. And that's a whole other part of the story. More of the neglect, why was I going in at them, especially that day, I'm supposed to be getting welcomed into membership, why weren't they there?

Stephanie Olson: 11:52

Then how old? Were you?

Danielle Bernock: 11:55

10 or 11. So right there, that's something they weren't there for that. Right, right. But then trauma took place, because I was sitting there and they called everyone up one at a time to announce their name and stand with the pastor and be welcomed into membership. And I'm already suffering the emotional neglect. So becoming a member of the church was huge for me, right? Because I feel like I belonged at home. Exactly. I was gonna belong at church, right? I'm gonna belong somewhere. Nope, not here. Wow. left on the front row, just sitting there for the entire church to look at, left out.

Stephanie Olson: 12:35

And no one noticed

Danielle Bernock: 12:36

that I made no idea I'd really hard to understand or remember. Yeah, wow, wow. What the Lord showed me as I was writing this book is like the Holy Spirit. How I envision it's like, I can almost see it. Like it took me like a little kid by the hand, and just slowly, gently walked me to a place where he was going to show me something hard. Like, I got you, though, was like, I got you. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And he walked me there. And he showed me what took place in my soul was the inversion of a lie. There's a Bible verse, it says, Everyone who comes to Jesus, He will in no wise cast out. But I left there, believing that Jesus himself had cast me out. Right. And I believe from that day forward, that everyone would always reject me. Wow. Wow. And there were other traumas in my life growing up. Also, there was many deaths that took place in my growing up and I had a trauma that was associated with my name, I legally changed my first name and 1988 Because I have a trauma associated with that. And they all built on one another. That's why the name of that chapter is called Bullseye because the Bullseye is a highest point of effectiveness right in the center. You can't get any more precise than the bracelet. Right? So it's like he like opened up. This is why you have been struggling with this, this, this, this this this? Oh, I mean, literally, my mouth dropped open. And I guess he shows.

Stephanie Olson: 14:17

So I want to go back to something that I think is incredibly important, because you said that when the church rejected you, it looked to you your perception was that Jesus himself rejected you. And I think that is so common, because the church I mean, let's face it, we're human, and we mess up. Right. And there is and I personally believe that there is so much hurt and trauma in the church because so many in the church are not willing to say, Hey, I am not perfect. Yeah, And so it adds to that. Can you talk a little bit about that and trauma in the church and the difference between being rejected by the people in the church and being rejected by Christ? That was loaded? That was a loaded question right there.

Danielle Bernock: 15:23

Well, I was rejected by the people. But I was too young to understand that, yeah. As a child, a child will process situations differently than an adult. Yeah, they are more susceptible to trauma. And I will stop here for your listeners to define trauma. Trauma is not the incident. Trauma is the wound that takes place in the brain. And in my case, in this particular place, the soul because the Lord showed me that happened in my soul. Yeah, I had that expectation because a spiritual wound took place, not just a physical brain wound because trauma wounds the brain physically, chemically, biologically. Right, right. Why trauma is not intentional. No one can intentionally traumatize themselves. Yeah, but there is a such a stigma attached to that word trauma. People don't want to own that that happened to them, because it makes them feel inferior and chef. But that's a lie. That's a lie. That's right, such a lie. And trauma in the church. every bad thing that happens to people in the church is not necessarily trauma, because of that reason, because it may have upset them or made them mad, or they would be like hurt their feelings, how deep the wound goes. Will be evidenced by how it plays out, does it affect you later? Do you find it over here? Do you find it over there? And it will create a trauma response that will be separate from the incident.

Stephanie Olson: 17:02

Right? So how did that event when you were sitting in that church? Rejected? How did that event affect you and your relationship with the church with the people in the church going forward? And then I would love to know a little bit more about your relationship with your family and how that emotional neglect, you know, affected you and your family going forward.

Danielle Bernock: 17:31

Well, how it affected me with the church that day, is I didn't remember going home. But I still craved to belong. Right? And apparently, they gave me the opportunity to earn my way. Because I found out later I didn't know any of this. My mother explained this to me later. Apparently, my dad had called the church to find out what happened. And they had refused me membership because my parents weren't going to church. And so if they made me a member, I wouldn't go to church either. Oh, my

Stephanie Olson: 18:02

gosh. So there's a whole story right there. Okay.

Danielle Bernock: 18:08

It's really kind of comical. But they said that I could, I could do these extra things. I could earn my way. Oh, and how that affected me and my soul was what my child's brain said to myself was, I have to earn God's love. Yeah, absolutely. is the complete opposite of the gospel. Right, right. So I had to take special classes. And then they made me a member on a Sunday night when no one was at church. And so far as I know, that was the last time I went to the picture that so

Stephanie Olson: 18:43

sad. So it's like

Danielle Bernock: 18:45

they became a self fulfilling prophecy. After that, right, years later, after the Lord apprehended me and I became I came back to him I say apprehended because that's the word I use in my book as he chased me I chased him because he loves me. Yes, he loves you who are listening. He lost my train of thought train will come around again on the track. It always does. How I, when my husband and I got engaged, we went back to that church. I did it on purpose one time, because I wanted to forgive and I didn't want any bitterness in my heart. So that was my, my, I never did a 12 Steps recovery, but I think you have to do stuff like that in there. So I went to that church on Sunday to as an act of forgiveness, I forgive this church, these people, whatever, I forgive them for that wound in my life. So I did go back one time and that was one time that I went back. So how did that because because

Stephanie Olson: 20:03

forgiveness is a choice forgiveness is not necessarily a feeling you know, we don't feel all this Oh, I'm, I'm I feel so forgiving very often does not happen. And so it is a choice A Tell me about that day and how how that felt in that, you know, going back into that church sitting in those pews. And while they actually making a decision to forgive them,

Danielle Bernock: 20:31

well, they actually had built a different sanctuary. So I didn't have to go in the same room. I don't know if I would have remembered I went, it felt very weird and odd because I hadn't it had been years and years and years. Yeah, I was to one tee. I was 21 when I did that. So it had been a good 10 years since I had been there. And my now husband went with me. So I went to this place. It was weird board and I hadn't been there in a long time. So I went really just with my heart kind of like inside myself going okay, God, you're coming with me. Right? Yeah, right kind of thing. Went in there sat there. I, the people said hi, or whatever. I don't even remember a whole lot of who talked to me, if anyone remembered me if I remembered them. And it was uneventful, actually, but it was it was a line in the sand for me was a line that I drawn. And so I knew that I had done what I could do to Okay, I did what I know to do, you got to do the inner work God.

Stephanie Olson: 21:34

Right. Right. Exactly. Which, which is usually not overnight.

Danielle Bernock: 21:40

No, it took me many, many, many years. Well, I didn't really understand the spiritual implication of what had happened till I was writing that book. I was 55 years old that Yeah, yeah. I was I started when I was 54. Published 55. But so many years later. Yeah.

Stephanie Olson: 21:59

That's yeah, absolutely. So how is the relationship with your family today?

Danielle Bernock: 22:12

I, it's, I'm laughing for a reason. Because my family was very small from the beginning. I had one grandmother, and one step grandfather. Neither are alive. I had a mom and a dad. And my grandmother died. When I was 13. Two months later, my dad died. Oh, wow. And I wish there for that, watching that awful thing take place. Wow. A few years later, I lost a friend, a childhood friend. And then four years after my father died, I lost my eldest brother. Oh, I'm so sorry. That's so my brother. I mean, my dad had used to have two siblings. And he lost his mom, his dad and his sister all before he was married. Oh, my goodness. He had one brother. So I had an uncle who is married. And they had one child who I had one cousin, which we got together when I was kind of young. But then suddenly, they left the picture. And I have no idea why. Okay, interesting. So what I have left of my family is I have a brother. So I mean, I'm going down. I have two children. I have six grandchildren. But yeah, you know, what I have of my family as I have a brother and we have become very close. That's we've gone through a long journey together. Because he has his own story, which is not trying to tell. Yep. But he helped me process my childhood a little bit. Also, I talked with him while I was writing the books. And that goes back to what we were saying earlier about one would be traumatized one would not be right. Because he's like, don't you remember this, Mike? No, Mike, don't remember this. No. Did you know this happened? We've shared stories and it was quite enlightening. It's amazing. Well, I my mother and I, we had a very rocky relationship. But I want to honor her by sharing. After I'd gotten married, there was this one day she invited me to lunch. And she asked me if I wanted to be friends. And I craved you know, relationship. I had all this lag. So I said, Yes. And we started a long journey of building a bridge between the two of us. That's which led to we were very close when she passed, and I had my, my deepest prayer answered was to be with her. I wanted to be with her. And I got to be sitting there holding her hand singing to her. Wow. And she passed so we came through it. So my message here for who's listening is no matter what kind of trauma you have, or what kind of emotional nickel Back to may have suffered, you can heal, your relationships can be healed, if both parties will he participate participants, right, so operating participants, but if one party is not cooperative, I'm sad, then that can't be healed because you can't have a relationship all by yourself. That's

Stephanie Olson: 25:19

right. And really some, some can be. I think that's where that forgiveness piece comes in. Because there are some relationships that you shouldn't continue. There are some relationships that probably really, you know, when you're talking about severe abuse or things like that, that you need to separate from that person. But that forgiveness can still happen, which really brings healing to you as individuals. So Oh, I love that. I love that story about your mom and your brother, that is really beautiful, because it really just shows how God can just take something that is so not of Him and just turn it into something that's beautiful, and a blessing.

Danielle Bernock: 26:05

I love the the definition of forgiveness from the book, The Shack, I when I when I read this I just it etched on my heart. Forgiveness is letting go of another person's throat. Yeah, yep. That

Stephanie Olson: 26:24

is true. That is true. Yeah.

Danielle Bernock: 26:27

Well, that picture because that's that's such an emotionally charged way of looking at it. Right. And forgiveness is an emotional thing. It is a choice, but it involves your emotion. Oh,

Stephanie Olson: 26:38

absolutely.

Unknown: 26:39

Absolutely. And it's really painful.

Stephanie Olson: 26:43

Exactly. So you then founded for F media, so tell us about that.

Danielle Bernock: 26:51

Fourth media stands for EFS, our faith, friends, family, and freedom. I found it that to publish my first book, because I was going to publish my book myself instead of traditionally published because they were going to buy it, and then it would no longer be mine. Right. Right. Now they don't do things so much like that. But back then it was like, No, you're not going to own my story. It's my story, because then I could never publish it or change it or update it or do anything with it. Right. So I wanted to own my story. So I created a company so that I could publish that. And I was looking into media. I mean, it was a book. And so I was thinking, well, maybe I'll do something else later. I don't know. But I had no plans past that. But now it's reached into I was blogging, I have a blog, I have other books, I have a podcast, I have a YouTube channel. So I am looking to share my message on all different kinds of media. And those are the four things that are really important to me are faith, family, friends and freedom.

Stephanie Olson: 27:59

Yeah. Isn't that great? How God set something up? And you're like, I don't know, this is he just, he just puts it together? So I love that that is fantastic. So Daniel, how can people find you? What's the best way for people to find you?

Danielle Bernock: 28:19

On my website, everything can be accessed from my website. I'm on all the major socials and I have my own YouTube channel and my podcast Victoria souls podcast. But you can all find them at Danielle burn uk.com It's B E R, N O CK many people would jump to the thing of a BU R, but it's B E?

Stephanie Olson: 28:40

Yes. I'll make sure to have that in all of the notes of the podcast. I just I love your story I love your resilience is what it is. So this is my final question for you. What does resilience mean to you?

Danielle Bernock: 29:04

Ah, I've written about this resilience is is a big thing. And the most visual way someone who can visualize me explaining it, it was take a spring in your hand and you push it together and pull it apart. That is resilience, its ability to be able to bounce back from something terrible or hard or difficult, and be able to live life and thrive again. After that. There's different ways you can build resilience. I mean, it's something you can actually work on so that you can make it stronger inside of yourself. So it's not just something you have or you don't have though some people do tend to be born with more of it than others depending on their personality. Yeah, but I've written about it before because it is an important aspect and the more resilience you have, the less likely You'll fall into trauma, but it doesn't make you impervious to it because salutely trauma happens to even the strongest people. I mean, people who go to war in that they are trained. And I have a friend who I interviewed for my book because you matter he, he's a trauma coach. He was in the military, he was trained in resilience. I mean, his story was amazing what he put himself through to build resilience before he was done growing up. Yet still, he ended up with PTSD. So it's not a guarantee, but it is something that you can add to your life.

Stephanie Olson: 30:34

Okay, so not my final question. So now, here. So talk about what that means to build resilience. How do you do that?

Danielle Bernock: 30:45

Well, one of the articles that I've written, I talked about five ways you can build resilience. One is building up your sense of humor. One way you can see if maybe you don't have such great resilience is can you laugh at yourself. I couldn't laugh at myself. For the longest time, I was so filled with shame. That when any, anytime I did anything wrong, or made a mistake, self condemnation was just all over that, right? There's no resilience in that. So helping your sense of humor to grow is one thing that you can do to build resilience. building healthy relationships is another way. Studies have shown that healthy relationships, mitigate trauma. And children, if they are going through what couldn't be called a trauma exposure, it's a situation that could cause trauma. But if they are surrounded with love, and nurture, they can actually they have the possibility of going through that. And emerging without any trauma, right? That's amazing, right? So healthy relationships, and unhealthy relationships, oftentimes, are a side effect of trauma, right? dependence. And, you know, the refusal of asking for help, because that's called counter dependence, all kinds of different trauma responses, but there are, there are many things you can do to build resentment. So those are two

Stephanie Olson: 32:13

examples. And we can learn more about that from, from your writings and your work. And so one more time, what is your website,

Danielle Bernock: 32:23

Danielle bernanke.com. I also do coaching to help people if you want someone to walk alongside you with that you don't want to just read stuff, because sometimes, you know, you want someone with you. Sometimes you want the privacy of it. Sometimes you want someone with you, but healing really happens within the confines of relationships. So you should find someone to help you whether it's a friend, a pastor, a counselor, I'm not a counselor, or a coach, but you should get someone to walk that road with you because we weren't created to walk through life alone.

Stephanie Olson: 32:55

No, we were not definitely. Well, I really appreciate you sharing your story and just the amazing work that you're doing today. And you definitely are the picture of resilience. So thank you so much for for just sharing who you are and helping others through the things that you've learned. It's just incredible. Thank you.

Danielle Bernock: 33:20

It's my pleasure.

Stephanie Olson: 33:21

Thank you. And thank you for listening to resilience in life and leadership. We'll see you next time. Thank you for listening. Please share with anyone you think will benefit from this podcast.